Herbal liver cleanse/treatment

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Herbal liver cleanse/treatment

Postby Alice » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:56 pm

I've been taking this herbal combo given to me by a naturopath and I've been taking it for a week now. Thing is, I seem to be experiencing irritbility and anger for no apparent reason. Someone told me these emotions could be as a result of the treatment. Anyone out there have an opinion? Would be good to know where it's coming from.
Thanks, Alice
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Postby Airmid » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:11 pm

Hi Alice,
I believe that what you are expericing is due to the liver cleanse. Liver flushes are used to stimulate elimation of wastes from the body and to open and cool the liver to increase bile flow and liver function.

Picture yourself cleaning out your house and going through old pictures this usually brings out either negative or positive emotions. Part of the liver cleanse will be releasing these energies. When are liver is out of balance we tend to be very emotional.

Usually I recommend that my clients do a liver cleanse or flush in cycles of 10 days on and 3 days off. Maybe taking this cleanse in cyles may help.

Hope this helps,
Good health encompasses body, mind, emotion, and spirit
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Postby Alice » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:43 pm

Thanks, that does help. He also gave me some homeopathic drops to take; one for liver, one for adrenals, and one to balance hormones. I would assume, then, that all of these combined would promote the symptoms I'm having. The label on the drops say "no caffeine", does that mean not even green tea? I'm struggling with giving up the morning coffee :cry: but if it's absolutely necessary to get better then, I'll bite the bullet.
I liked your analogy of cleaning house, that makes sense and I will take your advice and cycle the treatment.
You mentioned clients. Are you a naturopath? herbalist? :?:
Thanks again for the advice.
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Postby Airmid » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:19 pm

Yes give up the caffeine. Usually after 3 days you won't miss it anyway and feel better for it. Caffeine is defeating the purpose of the liver cleanse. Try this drink in the morning - ask the homeopathic physician that you are working with if this is something you can use along with your current treatment. VERY IMPORTANT.

Here is the basic liver flush drink that most herbalist recommend:
mix fresh orange, grapefruit, and lemon juices to make 1 cup.
Add 1-2 cloves of fresh squeezed garlic and ginger juice, about a small slice.
1 tablespoon of high -quality olive oil.
Mix all together and drink.
Should be followed by a cleansing herbal tea: note; not green tea.
Then wait two hours before meal.

I have a degree in holistic nutrition and as a family herbalist.
Still learning as much as I can, since there is such a wealth of information that one can only hope to posses in a lifetime and happy that there are sites like susun's.

Green Blessings,
Good health encompasses body, mind, emotion, and spirit
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Postby sapphire kate » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:35 pm

Or it could be that your liver is pissed off at being forced to do something it doesn't need.

What's in the combo?
It's all good (except for the crappy bits).
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Postby Alice » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:13 pm

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to do the citrus juice mixture because of my sensitive stomach.
I believe the combo is appropriate and my liver does appear to need it but thanks for the reply, sapphire kate.
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Postby Moonflower » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:24 pm

i'm curious about the combo, too. in what form do you take it, and what are the herbs?
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Postby MaDonaVerde » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:50 pm

Ditto the question from SK and Moonflower - curious to know about what herbs in the combo you are taking/what form they are in/what amounts etc/and what's the overall protocol you've been given for taking them.

Aside from the possibility that there is something in one of the homeopathic combos that you are taking that could be causing the emotional response, let me also pose a specific reason why the liver protocol could be causing anger/irritability:

In my experience, many of the herbs that are recommended for "liver cleanses" are given in kind of a "one size fits all" format. Same formula/herbs for everyone that comes in the door. Depending on your individual body chemistry/constitution, there are certain herbs that in certain people will - as SK suggested - "piss off" your liver because they are too much *for you personally* (says me from my own BTDT). My constitution CANNOT handle strong liver herbs/lots of bitters or beware LA Bitch Extraordinaire!

So...while my liver *is* constitutionally sluggy and *does* need help/support, I find that many traditionally suggested "liver herbs" are too much - *for me personally* (especially depending on the time of year etc. as in accordance with Ayurvedic/Chinese Medicine observations), and my liver is MUCH happier using gentler/more subtle approaches (and so are those who have to live/work with me ;) )

For the sake of being more specific - here's an example: if you are someone prone to blood sugar issues - and particularly if the protocol you've been given involves some type of fasting and/or radical changes to your diet while you're on it, and sometimes, even if it doesn't - the herbs involved (particularly if there are a lot of strong bitters used in the formula) can tank your blood sugar. Just ask my dh and/or my parents how nice I am when *my* blood sugar tanks :lol: Seriously.

Soooooooooooo...SK's line of questioning (and therefore, Moonflower's too) - IME/IMO is a fair one given what you have described to us so far.

And FWIW, Susun has a few thoughts herself on liver cleanses/flushes, but I'm happy to leave that part of the discussion out of it for now. ;) Plenty on that part of the equation in her books/newsletters/referenced in the archives if you're interested.

HTH and best of luck to you,

"Don't worry so much about 'Not Supposed To'. Hm? Live a little." - Armande Voizin in "Chocolat"
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Postby Alice » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:25 pm

All valid points so here goes:
ingredients are:

magnesium citrate 75 mg
Bitamin B6 80 mg
choline 600 mg
DL-Methionine 600 mg
Inositol 600 mg
Taraxacum Root 300 mg
Chelidonium 150 mg
Berberis vulgaris 300 mg
Beet Greens 150 mg
Catechin 150 mg
Black Radish 150 mg
Neem 50 mg
Silymarin Extract 150 mg
Tinospora cardifolia 50 mg
Picrohiza kurroa 50 mg
Boerhavia diffusa 50

and I can totally relate to the "bitch extrordinaire" but I'm trying really hard to keep it under control. Kinda reminds me of my PMS days. I've been handling the menopause quite nicely with herbs, and have no problem with those at all. I agree with
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Postby Alice » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:59 pm

Sorry, accidentally cut myself off before finished. Anyway, the premise that some may be too strong. There is no special diet, except for the common sense diet when taking care of the liver. The herbal combo is in capsule form and now that you've brought all this to my attention, perhaps I'm taking too much as he prescribed 2 caps 3X day! plus the homeopathics which, to answer your question, MaDonaVerde, I don't know what is in them because they are formulated at the naturopathic clinic. So, awaiting your response to this latest post. BTW, I've worked in the healthfood industry and done some studying in the herbal field; just so you know I'm not totally uninformed in this area. Also, I've been under this naturopaths care now for about 2 years and he has helped me considerably with his treatments so, I do trust him although, he may think I'm a lot stronger constitutionally than I really am.
Blessings to you all and thanks for you input,
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Postby MaDonaVerde » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:28 am

Hi Alice,

Yeah - tough to say with that formula since there's an awful lot going on in there.

Just to toss out a few ideas, though, here's what I might suggest:

1) try self-testing your homeopathics and your herbal/supplement combo to see how your body is reacting. Check yourself in the morning, and throughout the day to get a sense for dosing etc. (ie your body will tell you when it's time to stop dosing for the day. Lots of ways to do this, but a good start is Lady Barbara's page on it at her website www.ladybarbara.net

2) If your body *does* indicate a "no thank you" response to the herbal combo in particular, I'd go for a more simplified approach so that you can get a better sense of *which* herbs work/don't work/are more constitutionally appropriate for you. Along those lines, I tend to like DIY stuff/stuff that's easy to incorporate into my normal daily routine (and tends to be blissfully cheaper too ;) ). I also tend to go for forms of herb that are easier to adjust based on how I'm feeling on a given day/what my body seems to be craving.

For example, you like coffee. How about trying an herbal "roasted roots" blend that includes some good liver-y herbs and brew that half-and-half into your normal morning cuppa? Eg - roasted dandelion or chicory root etc. Cuts down on the java consumption, but with a nice robust flavor that blends well with java etc. Mountain Rose Herbs makes a nice pre-blended one. They also have a nice herbal Chai blend with some roasted roots.

Another easy peasy thing is to just tote around a bottle of dandelion root tincture and squirt a dropperful or two into a small cup of hot water before meals.

Some other herbs I like that are very gentle but good for liver-y stuff are Calendula or St. Johnswort. Now that we are heading into colder weather and subsequent dry skin season in the Northern Hemisphere, I really like "anointing" my body with herbal oils. Gets the benefit of the herb in my system and keeps me from turning reptile :lol: Calendula and/or a St. J's oil particularly as a belly rub would be very nourishing to the liver. Calendula would give the added benefit of keeping wintertime sluggy lymph moving along. St. J's is FABULOUS for that PMS-y/livery hormonal-induced bitchiness, IMO because it's got the good stuff for a fried nervous system, but also because it clears excess estrogen from the liver.

Lastly - while it's not a good herbal choice for *me* at the moment because I'm pregnant - Motherwort as a tincture is another wonderful herbal resource for menopausal ladies/PMS sufferers who are going through "road ragey" type feelings. Both a nice herbal bitter and a soul soother for rough moments. Went to a nice lecture that Susun gave about it and it's also fabulous for menopausal heart concerns - actually rebuilds coronary capillaries to the point of it being nicknamed "bypass in a bottle" (if taken regularly). A caution for that one is you definitely don't want to take it regularly if you're still getting your cycles and prone to flooding.

Anyway, just a few places to explore/tweak for you. I will say that nearly *everyone* is deficient in Magnesium and B vits to the point of needing at least occasional supplementation with those, so I'd still probably work with taking those separately even if the herbal combo *as a combo* isn't working for you.

HTH and Green Blessings,

"Don't worry so much about 'Not Supposed To'. Hm? Live a little." - Armande Voizin in "Chocolat"
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Postby Judy L » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:04 pm

Hi Alice,

Do you mind sharing w/ us why the naturopath suggested these things for you and what drew you to ask for treatment?

It is also standard protocol not to take caffeine or mint tea while taking homeopathic remedies. Once stopped they can be introduced back into your diet if you want.

Another comment about liver herbs and anger. In some modalities the liver is seen as storing anger and a place of action. If one takes an herb to stimulate the movement of energy thru the liver and there is stored/repressed anger in there it will come out. Not necessarily a bad thing. The stored up anger is what could be causing the congestion or stagnation in the liver.

Bottom line is only you can be the judge of what is going on. If there is an underlying feeling of health/wellness to the process or not.

Like has mentioned before there is alot going on w/all you are taking. Looking at the formula you mentioned from an herb standpoint there are some herbs in whole from and some extractions(which isn't always ideal).
I see Barberry, Dandelion, Guduchi, Milk thistle compound, katuka, A mix of western and some Ayurvedic herbs. Many powerful herbs in there.

It also hard to judge what the trigger is b/c of all that you are taking. Homeopathic remedies can trigger some deep stuff as well.

Besides all the suggestions you have rec'd so far I would also talk to the naturopath and share your concerns if you haven't already. A mention ... Also, this site has a wealth of info. If you have the time and inclination it might be nice to read some of what is here (articles by Susun). The philosophy is a bit different then most but very empowering and life affirming.

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Postby Alice » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:50 pm

The naturopath I see is a respected and well known Dr. and because of my past experience with him, wouldn't think of second guessing his diagnosis or treatments. I did call his office to ask about the symptoms and yes, as some of you have suggested, the anger stored there is coming out along with other emotions which is pretty normal, apparently but he suggested cutting back on the dosing. I am already taking B. vits. and magnesium along with the other vitamins, minerals and EFA's I've had a problem with absorption and digestion; have lived in a environmentally toxic area. I'm drinking herbal teas and the herbal tincture I use for menopause has motherwort in it. My background is in the herbal world so don't know much about the homeopathics so wasn't sure how they work. From what I've found out, they treat the whole body even the emotional one.
Anyway, still on a learning curve. Thanks for all your input. Oh, and I have spent some time in susunweed.com reading various things previous to posting. Thanks again,
Blessings, Alice
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Postby shamana flora » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:48 pm

just want to point out that the liver is the organ of anger in TCM I believe and In other traditions. Those with congested liver, stagnant liver qi or constrained liver energy often have anger and outbursts as a spiritual/mental/eomtional component of the situation in their energetic/emotuional and physical body.

We often saw people who "released "liver qi with herbs in our school at NAIMH and the clinic there, who with a simple of dandelion tincture could start to release some pent up, stored up anger.

I agree with everything everyone has already mentioned, just want to add that piece in there as well for reflection.
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Postby onthejourney » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:27 pm

I am glad that 2 people mentioned the liver-anger connection. I think some suggestions may be overcomplicating the situation. I see it quite often where either:
1. An chronically angry person usually has liver issues
2. People performing liver cleansing of any type, having bouts or bursts of anger come up.
3. "liver-types" people tend to be people that are more prones to keeping emotions, such as anger towards another person or situation, pent up instead of releasing them. Moving this 'energy' through cleansing, brings it to the surface to be dealt with.

Maybe when this anger comes up for you, you should sit in quiet, ask yourself "why am I angry right now?" "what is the true root of this anger?". Journalling might help you get to the true root of it over time.
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